Strivin & Thrivin Sponsored by The Nudge Group. Ep3. Emma Dwyer

Strivin & Thrivin – Sponsored by The Nudge Group – Ep3. Emma Dwyer

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Career transitions are never easy but Emma Dwyer has managed hers with grace. Starting in tech recruitment out of university, she is now a People and Culture Director for a recruitment agency in Sydney. The roles are much further apart than you might first think and the way she got there required a lot of motivation, learning, and a passion for people.

In this week’s episode of Strivin & Thrivin, Emma talks about how she landed her role in People and Culture, finding the balance between being a mum and her career, joining a startup, and how continued coaching is helping her thrive in her new role. 

Emma loved recruitment from the day she landed her first role at a tech recruitment agency in Sydney. 

“I liked the fast pace and the culture of the office, that sales agency kind of vibe, I really enjoyed that. Just talking to different people and every day was different.”

That never really changed, but life did. As she became a mother she could not give her recruitment role the time it needed as she wanted to work part-time and find the right balance between work and family. 

“I wasn’t satisfied because I couldn’t give it my all, but I needed to work part-time.” 

This is when things got interesting. For many people, that would have been it. They would have left their role and looked for something else. But Emma approached the situation differently. She had a good rapport with her bosses and wanted to stay with the company, so she went to the founders and told them she saw a gap. She carved out a new role for herself in People and Culture. And the founders were already thinking about the role too. 

Making the transition was not as simple as you might think. People and culture brings with it a lot of elements beyond recruitment. But recruitment is where Emma started because that is what she was good at and already knew, and she went on to build the company culture and learn HR skills from there.

Sometimes we look at people who are in the roles we want to be in, thinking that they have a ‘gift,’ or that the job comes more naturally to them than it would to us. Emma reminds us that even those in more senior roles are still learning and exploring, you simply need the passion and motivation to continually strive for improvements.  

“It’s still a huge learning curve for me constantly. I know when I first moved into the role, the multiple facets of HR people and culture, so to speak, weren’t as addressed by myself as they are now.”

Listen to this week’s episode of Strivin & Thrivin to learn more from Emma about navigating a career transition and extra tips about how coaching has helped her thrive in her new role.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Laura: I’m your host, Laura Johnson, and today I’m lucky enough to be joined by Steve Grace, as my wonderful co-host. Today, we’re thrilled to be joined by Emma Dwyer.

To get us started, can you tell us a little bit about your career background and your current role?

Emma: Sure. So, my background is in recruitment, in tech recruitment. I was just starting tech recruitment out of uni, wanted to start making some money to travel, and I sort of fell into it to an extent, and I’ve been in recruitment for, tech recruitment for well up until 2018, and then sort of moved roles as the company evolved, that I currently work for, into looking after People and Culture. So, I’ve been in this role for about two years, just a bit over. And my current role, I look after People and Culture for a recruitment agency.

Steve: Which one?

Emma: Technology People Group. We have offices in Sydney, Melbourne, and Brisbane. And I also work, I guess, alongside Olga who works for Novon, a no funds out IT consultancy business. So, I’ve got two, I guess, businesses that sort of compliment each other to an extent. And I look after People and Culture for that.

Steve: Now tell me how you fell into recruitment because everybody falls into recruitment, and everyone falls in, in a different way.

Emma: Yeah. Our fall in is probably not as a… Doesn’t catch really quite that well. So, yeah it was intentional to an extent. So, I did a psych degree and towards the end of my degree, I wanted to… I was thinking about going to organszational psychology so I did a three month or so internship. Right there at the end for Chandler MacLeod, and it was specifically within the recruitment business, and I really enjoyed it. And I thought… I looked into it a bit further, I knew that it sort of fit with what I wanted to do with working with people. And I joined sales, I had… but that was back in uni days, working in sales and it’s a good way of using some of my degree to an extent, but also setting me up to go traveling.

So yeah, that’s how I, fell into it is probably not the best way of describing, finding out that there’s actually sort of this new someone and just give it a crack. But I had some, I guess, guidance to an extent with some of the lectures that I work with it that sort of taught me at uni and then had the opportunity at Chandler MacLeod and had a bit of an insight. And then… Yeah, it just went on to…

Steve: What do you enjoy about? When you did your little sort of insight into Chandler MacLeod, you said you enjoyed it. What was it? Because it was a short space of time. What was it that sort of captured you?

Emma: I liked the fast pace and the culture of the office, that sales agency kind of vibe, I really enjoyed that. Just talking to different people and every day was different. There was no element of twiddling your thumbs and being bored. I liked to be busy, I really do not enjoy any sort of downtime, I guess, when it comes to work. So, which some people may disagree with that, but I really liked that fast pace. And you sort of got a bit of a satisfaction, I think out of, when you had that opportunity to place someone in their role that they really enjoyed. You build that rapport quickly, it made you feel good. So, I thought, “You know what?” Why not. Let’s take it further.

Steve: And it can pay quite well, I guess, if you’re about to go traveling, that can help.

Emma: Absolutely.

Steve: Where’d you go, by the way?

Emma: I just went to Europe for four or five months or whatever it may be. I was early twenties, it was a while ago now. Yeah, and it also set me up, I guess, to where I am now financially. So, one of the reasons why I did stay in it, I guess, longer than I had initially anticipated it.

Steve: Yeah.

Emma: So, yeah.

Laura: What made you want to move to have the more kind of people and culture side of things?

Emma: So, there’s two reasons. When I left agency recruitment about three years into it, I decided I didn’t want to do sales necessarily anymore and go into internal recruitment. I did that for about six months, and it just wasn’t for me for many reasons. And I heard that the founder of our current business, well, the two founders of that current business, were going to be starting this company because we used to work together previously.

And it was a no brainer for me to join their business. I just genuinely liked who they are as people, even though they were very, I guess, clear with me that it was a risk, it was a start-up business, it’s going to… It is a big risk for me, it just didn’t feel like that. And I worked, obviously in the recruitment business as a recruiter for four years or so and had my first child.

And I felt to be a successful recruiter, I thought I needed to do it full time. I needed my full commitment. You do obviously have clients, candidates calling you regularly. And I tried it part-time after coming back to work after maternity leave, and I just felt I wasn’t doing a good job of it.

Steve: It’s so hard.

Emma: It’s really hard.

Steve: Because it’s so reactive.

Emma: Absolutely, absolutely. I felt that, no, I can’t give it my all. I want to be satisfied in my job, so I wasn’t… I felt like I wasn’t satisfied because I couldn’t give it my all, but I needed to work part time. So, I had the conversation with the founder and thought, we are… We were at a point then that we were growing, and I could see a gap. Someone needed to own People and Culture, for many reasons, for us to get to where we wanted to as a business. And coincidentally, at the same time, they were sort of thinking the same thing. So, it was a great marriage, I guess, so to speak that I was… Brought that to their attention and they said they were actually thinking about you for that role anyway. So, I wanted to stay with the company that I worked for, but I didn’t want to do recruitment. So how can we make this work? And that… Yeah.

Steve: It’s so good that you asked, because I think there are so many people out there that get into a situation like that, for different reasons, it’s not just always children. And they don’t ask because they don’t think the answer will be, yes.

Emma: Yes.

Steve: And then you just said that the founders were actually thinking the same thing as well. And then they go and find another job, and then they go to the founders and say, “Oh, I didn’t think…” And they were like, “No”, and then you get this scenario. And I think that’s something that…

Emma: Absolutely.

Steve: Talk about what made you feel comfortable because I wish more people would talk to their managers, their founders, the owners of the business, whatever it is about, what they’re thinking, because no one wants to lose a good staff member regardless, and they’re always going to try and find a way. But so few people ever give their managers or business owners the opportunity. So, what made you comfortable to do that?

Emma: I think the relationship I have with the company founders, just going back to why I joined them. They’re just genuine people that do listen to you. And I knew they valued my input into the business. So, I felt comfortable to raise that without feeling like, “Oh, they’re going to let me go, or they were going to just mistreat me, or”, there was never that sort of concern. And I have had the sort of… I guess, one of my values, if you don’t ask, you don’t get.

Steve: Yep.

Laura: Yeah.

Emma: What do you have to lose? Yeah, I felt comfortable enough to have that conversation.

Steve: So, tell me now, obviously as a People and Culture Manager, how do you… As companies get bigger and bigger, it’s harder for people to approach the founders because they’ve usually disconnected to some degree. So how do you now, as a People and Culture Manager, when people would traditionally come to you about these things, how do you make them feel comfortable to be able to come to you, to make sure that the same thing happens further down because you get a bigger business, how are you going to make sure that your staff, when they’re in the situation, you’re in feel comfortable and don’t go and find another job? How do you do that?

Emma: I guess right from the get go, from induction. I really highlight what our values are and one of them is, we’re not mean, and we are collaborative, but we’re quite a flat structure and it’s not hierarchical in any sense. And I really, I guess, enforce the fact that, speak up. Don’t ever feel that you can’t speak up. Another one of our values is, challenge your ordinary. So always speak up about something that you might have a better way of doing something or you’re not happy with something, always speak up.

So, I really make sure I highlight that right from the get-go. And I think from my own role, building relationships with each individual is really important for them to be able to do that. So, I make sure I put time into that because if I don’t and I disconnect then that situation could arise.

Steve: Yeah, absolutely.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, I guess one of the keyways is really building your relationships with each individual. I’ve got that luxury, I guess, being a smaller business, only 25, 30 staff at the moment, so.

Steve: Yeah.

Emma: To an extent, I have that luxury. I may not in the future and then I would have to readdress how I kind of ensure those conversations take place. I think the other piece we do quite regularly within the business is ensure that those sort of career conversations are happening regularly with people leaders. So, making sure that the staff have that relationship with a direct report is really important as well.

Steve: Yeah.

Emma: They are constantly connected.

Steve: Okay. And if you follow on to that, another question for you, right? So, you move into this People and Culture world, you’ve obviously studied in that kind of space, you do have the psychology and so forth, you got some understanding of it. But you’ve also been in agency recruitment for quite some time and developed your own habits there. And then you’ve also had your first child, which is another head space change. How do you suddenly come back into a different role and how did you deal with becoming effective at? Learning what to do, learning in it? How did that happen? How did you go about it?

Emma: Transition.

Steve: Because it would’ve been a huge step

Emma: Yeah, and it still is in all honesty. It’s still a huge learning curve for me constantly. I know when I first moved into the role, the multiple facets of HR People and Culture, so to speak, weren’t as addressed by myself as they are now. So, I sort of tackled Talent Attraction first, which obviously made sense because I had years of experience in recruitment, and we were growing. So, I was purely focusing on recruiting internally for our business, so. And then I guess as time has gone on, I’ve sort of looked at the business through that lens around attraction, retention, culture. What’s important to ensure our staff do stay, do thrive, do… Are successful. So, I think that’s just kind of happened organically over time. Meeting people like Olga and other people in my, sort of people and culture network, to bounce ideas off, to ask questions, it’s just sort of grown over time. It definitely wasn’t an instant bang.

Steve: No, I don’t imagine. What’s been the hardest part of it so far? I guess, what’s the biggest, most drastic thing you’ve had to change about?

Emma: For me, the hardest part was changing the dynamic between the company founders, or my bosses. So, previously I was taking directions, whereas now I’m questioning their direction, so that has changed. I found that really challenging.

Steve: I’ll bet.

Emma: I still find it challenging.

Steve: I’ll bet.

Emma: Absolutely. I still find it challenging in learning ways to be more effective. Doing that, and I guess, listening to my gut as well, but it’s taken time. But that’s definitely been the most challenging.

Steve: Yeah, I can imagine. And have you enjoyed it? I mean, it sounds like it’s still a journey, it’s got a long way to go but…

Emma: It’s still a journey. Still a journey. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I have enjoyed it because I think I’ve… Where I am now, I’m having, I guess, a level of influence to where the business goes, whereas before I was taking more of a backseat.

Steve: So, you’ve obviously achieved that biggest jump of them taking…

Emma: Yeah, I think… Totally, I would say in the last sort of six months, maybe that I’ve been able to have those conversations. And it has really been more, again, me speaking out around what I need to be effective in my role.

Steve: That’s great.

Emma: So again, having those honest conversations.

Steve: Oh, look, it’s great. I mean, if you think about when… And I’m a little older than both of you, but when I was growing up, it was very hard for anyone in People and Culture to have any influence over anything in the business. And I think that that change that has happened over the last probably 10 years, I would guess, has been hugely positive. And I think it’s something that continues, to me, to grow because there’s so many people out there that say how important their people are and they don’t necessarily live it, so it’s great that you’re doing that.

Emma: Yeah. And that’s something that goes back to where we were as a business and where we need to go, is having someone to own that. Because how do we keep our good people if no one has their finger on the pulse?

Steve: Exactly.

Laura: Totally. I think it was what we were just saying with Olga as well. Just even in the last 12 months has been one of the good things for kind of People and Culture, and people realising just how important it is. Because suddenly having everyone there and everyone’s dispersed and then what? Then how do we build culture? And bit like you’re saying it’s obvious that the values that you guys have got that you’re really living them, and people need to see that because then they know it’s okay and that’s how you kind of build it. But how do you start doing that when you’re all kind of all over the place or certain people are in, certain people are not, so.

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. The last 12 months is, we really added another facet or dynamic to the People and Culture or HR role.

Laura: Yeah.

Steve: What’d you reckon has been the hardest in the last 12 months? Because I mean, we all know what’s happened, there’s a lot of things that have happened and there’s the obvious ones, but what for you is, you personally, and maybe you as a business, what do you think have been the two hardest things?

Emma: I think as a business, and I’m sure every company’s the same, is that level of uncertainty and trying to make… You don’t want to make false promises. So, trying to get people comfortable to live. We’ll sit with uncertainty is really challenging. I think that’s been one of the biggest challenges. And for myself personally as well, I think everyone’s just been able to sit in that level of uncertainty. That’s where we’re sort of obviously coming out of that now, but this time last year was…

Steve: Well, I find this fascinating, this… I want to talk about this more, this uncertainty thing. So, I think if you actually look at where we were before COVID, everything was still uncertain.

Emma: Absolutely.

Steve: And it actually didn’t get any more uncertain, it was just a different kind of uncertainty. And I think we’d settled into a repeatable pattern of uncertainty that we were comfortable with it and suddenly the uncertainty was a different uncertainty and it’s where we are now. But the reality is humans like certainty as a general rule, as much as they say they like surprises, they like to know…

Emma: They like to be…

Steve: They do. And so, we haven’t actually changed. The uncertainty is the same, it’s just different. I find it fascinating how much it’s affected the whole world. And maybe you can look at that from a psychology point of view because I find it one of the most interesting…

Emma: Yeah. I was having a few chats with my close friends, because a few of them are in sort of leadership, people leadership roles, and they were coming to me like, “We’re losing staff. People are just… Am I a bad manager? Is that the problem?” Attrition just seems to be an issue in many industries and I’m asking them, “No, what’s the feedback? You’ve got to ask why people have left”. And a lot of it’s to do with the company’s vision is not clear. There’s no certainty in X, Y, Z, and it’s… It seems to be a consistent thing across the board this whole… A lot of my friends are in these people leadership roles saying, “But we don’t know what sometimes the vision is. The heads of, sit in the C levels sometimes to an extent, I don’t know what the vision is or can’t articulate or trying to make the decision around what it could look like”. But I don’t know why people are using that as, almost as an excuse.

Steve: Maybe, maybe that is. I think it’s just… Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. I haven’t had enough time to sit down and think about it, but it’s one of the interesting things I’d like to spend more time doing.

Emma: As I said, it seems to be consistent and definitely not a challenge that our business personally or myself personally, it seems to be consistent.

Steve: Well, look at your industry. The recruitment industry is booming.

Emma: Absolutely. That’s the crazy… I mean, a lot of the conversations I’m having with talent that we’re trying to attract is, people… Recruiters are having conversations now where they can dictate terms. If you want me to work on your roles and find your talent, then you need to pay the fee. And I’ve never heard it to be like that.

Steve: Never.

Emma: Never.

Steve: It did happen a long time…

Emma: Yeah. I mean, I sort of… I joined recruitment industry when GFC hit, so…

Steve: Yeah. Okay. Just before that?

Emma: Yeah, that’s why people kept saying, “It was so confusing, I joined it when it’s challenging”. But yeah, I think that’s… Yeah, it’s been a really interesting 12 months.

Laura: I guess, anyone now looking to get into recruitment or People and Culture, what advice would you give them?

Emma: Wow, that’s a good question. I’ve had actually had this conversation with someone recently…

Steve: Why would someone go from specifically Recruitment, to People in Culture? Because there’s quite a lot of recruiters, I think, who want to do that both internally and within recruiters but…

Emma: And I think that a lot of recruiters that are just starting in their career want to jump straight into HR, People & Culture..

Steve: I think they can. For some reason, recruiters all believe they can do HR. I know I used to when I was younger, which is madness, right? Because it’s not even remotely the same.

Emma: It’s one facet. What I’ve said to a lot of recruiters that are just a few months in, give recruitment a chance first, because you will learn how to attract staff. And that is such a key element to be an effective HR or People and Culture Leader. So now, learn of the crafts first, and then you can evolve from there. At least then you’ve got that particular tool in your tool belt when you are having conversations about evolving your career. And I think to an extent to just getting within the right company that might allow that to happen.

Steve: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah. And I guess on that then, so obviously you’ve gone into… From recruitment, you know how to attract people, you’ve gotten into People and Culture. How do you build your skillset? Do you have go-to resources? How do you manage that?

Emma: I’ve been very fortunate to have a coach over the last few months so that’s helped me immensely. And again, me and Olga and I guess expanding my own network, speaking to my network around courses that would be relevant. I think that’s a really key thing when it comes to courses because a lot of people thought and you think, education is something you need to do, but it needs to be relevant. Relevant education, relevant networking groups or podcasts or whatever it may be.

I think for me personally, it’s having conversations with the leadership team around what we want to achieve and having that open dialogue. And a lot of HR leaders that I’ve spoken to recently that have been in the industry for so much longer than I am, that I have been, they all say, “A lot of it is common sense”. There’s a lot of technical aspects of the role, but a lot of it is common sense and working with the leaders around how you can influence the people to achieve that, whatever that goal may be.

Steve: Common sense gets forgotten a lot. Everywhere, in every facet of life, I think.

Emma: Yeah. Having the, I guess the common sense within the context of commercial awareness.

Laura: Yeah.

Emma: Yeah.

Laura: I think that’s the same for most jobs. If someone said the same to me about marketing, I’d tell them the same.

Emma: Yeah.

Laura: I think most of it is just common sense.

Emma: Yeah, yeah. And having that, hearing that from someone who’s in the industry that’s been working there for so long, I thought, “Okay, well if I have that, maybe I can build on that”.

Laura: Totally.

Steve: How much of your psychology background do you think you use? Because it’s… I don’t know if that’s something that’s sort of used subconsciously or not?

Emma: In complete honesty, my psych degree, so much of it was bio psych and a lot of the, I guess, the science aspects to psychology that doesn’t interest me as much as, I guess the more humanities aspect. Towards the end of my degree, we started doing more of that, so that interests me, but I’ve always been interested in why people do things and questioning their motives. And I’ve just always… I’m very analytical, I’m just like that as a person. So that’s why I did a psych degree anyway. But I wouldn’t say I’ve… I take that theory and apply it to this situation. It’s more that I did the degree, as I enjoy understanding how people do things. But yeah, I mean the degree was a while ago. Well, over 10 years ago so I… A lot more than that. So, it’s… Yeah, almost 15 years ago now, so it’s not as… Yeah.

Steve: Was there any education that you did find that was relevant? How do you work out what’s relevant? I guess because people and culture is different in every industry, in every domain and so forth. And size of business. So, what did you do, I guess, that you found the most useful that’s perhaps accessible to a lot of different people? So maybe on a wider scope as opposed to being quite specific. Is there anything in particular?

Emma: I think the most important thing it’s not so much around the courses that you do, it’s the network you have.

Steve: Okay, Interesting.

Emma: That’s for me, is… And that’s something I think that I’ve learned from doing recruitment. It’s really who you know is going to create a lot of opportunities for you. So, I think it’s more building your village then taking… Going to a certain…

Steve: I like that expression.

Emma: Oh yeah. I love that expression. You build a village and then you… People make your experience. So, I think building your own network or village is really important to building your own success and…

Steve: That’s an awesome statement, I like that.

Laura: Yeah. And I think it was what you were saying before we started recording, the fact that you can just go to Olga and it’s like, “Hey, I’ve had these ideas and this is how I think it might fix it”. But being able to bat that around with people that you really respect, they’re great at what they do. And just being able to do that, you’re going to come up with great outcomes.

Emma: Exactly. And I think one of the… Maybe is an element of naivety to it, but I thought when I first started going… Stepping into this role a couple of years ago, I had to study, that was my first sort of thought. But really finding that network is what’s helped so much more.

Steve: How have you found your network?

Emma: Well, being a recruiter… I use LinkedIn quite well. And I how to, I guess, have the conversation. There’s a few, my kids that their friend’s parents are in HR or employee engagement and just happened to have conversations with people that be in that industry. And I just pick their brain, I guess, had that opportunity to pick their brain. What’s worked for them? What podcasts they listen to? What articles have they read? What have they found effective? Just having those conversations, right? So, you’re not wasting time, I think as well.

Steve: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah.

Steve: That’s really good. And you mentioned you’ve got to coach now, right? So last couple of months… Was that, I’m just intrigued, I have a feeling I know the answer, was that your idea or was that your founder’s idea?

Emma: It was actually the founders idea in the sense that the introduction was the founders. Having a coach was something I knew I needed.

Steve: Yeah.

Emma: But we, as a business, we have been collaborating with a couple of businesses that compliment what we do to expand our network. And I was introduced by this person… To this person, through that collaboration. And yeah, they have the opportunities, the perfect person to…

Steve: How long has it been going?

Emma: Since Jan.

Steve: Since Jan. So, what? Three months. Three, four months. Four months. So, talk to me about your network, obviously, and then the coaches, obviously it’s slightly more structured and more outcome driven than perhaps just a general network. What have you got the most out of that so far? I think coaches are amazing. I think they’re very undervalued, but you’ve got, like you mentioned, you’ve got to kind of find the perfect… It’s almost like finding a partner, you’ve got to find…

Emma: Absolutely. I think I’ve been really fortunate in this instance. I think for me, it’s… This coach has taken so much content, when it comes to people and culture, HR, how complex it can get, can be. And how you do feel like you need to solve everything. I know I’ve made that mistake that I thought I need to solve everything. And she’s been fantastic at simplifying things for me. I can get overwhelmed at times with, again, being in that solo role. And she’s really… Whenever I’ve gone to a coaching session, she said, “This is the issue, this is how we can simplify it”.

Steve: Yeah.

Emma: I think that’s a huge benefit.

Laura: Yeah. I think I’m with Steve on coaching. I think it’s been a bit of a game changer for me personally, if nothing else, the fact that you were taking that time each month to reflect on you. And you’re like, “Why did I think I had to solve everything? What caused that?”

Emma: Yeah.

Laura: So, I guess you kind of mentioned, you knew that you needed a coach, but it was the founders that did it. What made you think that you needed one? What was that moment that you’re like, “Oh, this is more than just asking my network, I need something else?”.

Emma: I think the more I evolve in my role, the more I don’t know. It’s that thing, the more you learn, the more you realise you don’t know. And I think that as my… I could see the gaps in the business that needed that, People and Culture element to evolve. It can’t just come from me, I don’t have the ideas yet, I don’t have the experience yet. I need someone to give that… Or at least have that conversation with. So, I knew that I needed someone else, but it couldn’t be the leaders of the current business because that’s… People and culture is not their expertise. I needed somebody to help me in my role to really add more value. And I’ve had, I guess, someone that I’ve sort of in my friendship network, that I’ve bounced things off over the last few years. But having that more formal arrangement has really helped me a lot.

Steve: Do you think people need both? A mentor and a coach? Like you, obviously you said you’ve got a friend network, that’s what I would consider a mentor. Would you say that you get completely different things from both or it’s nice to have a balanced view from both or?

Emma: I think having a balanced view is great and that’s one of the things that the coach has said to me. It’s always good to have a number of mentors. I think I don’t have one mentor in HR in life or anything. I think I learned from everybody. I wouldn’t say I really have a formal mentor.

Steve: Yeah.

Emma: Because everyone will have a different perspective, everyone’s going to have a different value. So, I think that the benefit of a coach is just having someone that’s a bit more structured, there’s a more formal element to it, and you’re held more accountable for delivering on whatever goal you may have established in your previous sessions. That just makes you… Having both is definitely beneficial.

Steve: Have you been a mentor?

Emma: Not formally, no.

Steve: Explain that.

Emma: Yeah. Back again, when I was in the recruitment role, there was one individual that I think that I helped grow and I looked after, she was one of my direct reports. So, and I know over time, she’s now in her own role and doing brilliant in another business. But I think that she’s someone that I certainly helped evolve her career.

Steve: Yeah, cool.

Emma: Yeah, yeah. It was a great experience, but I haven’t really… The feeling of getting that standalone role last year… Few years I would have been in that position internally, anyway.

Laura: So, the last question we’re asking everyone, is who else would you like to hear from on the podcast?

Emma: Ooh.

Steve: You can’t say Olga.

Laura: Olga said you.

Emma: I heard that. Obviously in the People and Culture realm? Or?

Laura: Kind of anyone really. Anyone’s career story that you think we could learn something from.

Steve: They need to be alive. Ideally in Australia because no one can travel, that kind of… That’s about it.

Laura: We can dial them in.

Steve: Or we could dial them in.

Emma: That could be anyone, couldn’t it?

Steve: It could be.

Emma: I think someone who’d be great to speak to is, I guess, especially for my network that I’ve learned a fair bit from over the years. Her name is Kimberly Tunbridge, I think her surname is, but her name is Kim, I know her as Kim. She works in NRMA, she works in employee engagement and she’s actually a coach, she runs her own coaching business on the side.

Steve: If she is a coach that would be good.

Emma: She’s brilliant. She’s so passionate about what she does. She lives and breathes employee engagement, and she loves coaching. She’s sort of established that in the last, I think the last year or so, and she gets all out if herself. She’d be great.

Laura: Awesome.

Emma: Your listeners would love her. She’s very, very passionate about what she does.

Steve: Cool.

Laura: That’s awesome. Cool. Thank you so much for today.

Emma: Thank you.

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